PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

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alexpolo
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PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#1 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:27 pm

Hi all,

Just posting some info on a PDMS coating alternative which is working wonders on my B9v1.2.

Have tried Nuvat but problems with large surface area prints like initial layups.

Have been running this Silicone Grade for 3 weeks and only showing the smallest amount of ghosting around supports. Print almost daily compared to Sylgard I would only get about a week before ghosting got to the point that needed replacement.

This grade of Silicone is used in the FX industry - flow is perfect and works well over the waterfall edge with a retainer like the new poly vat or aluminium vats.

The Silicone is a 1:1 mix grade which I presume creates a better catalytic reaction - and a better tighter rubber molecule arrangement. Also the cost is way cheaper and the time to cure with a small amount of heat is within a couple of hours.

Here is info the grade that I am using.

http://www.barnes.com.au/addition-curin ... glass-1573

Datasheet is available at same location.
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Rubber Glass.JPG

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RobertH
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#2 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:41 pm

Very good!! seems like it extends the life of pdms at least 3 times? unbelievable. How is the release? did you have any failed parints within the timeframe? Maybe Mike could give us some thoughts too, im sure he had been testing different alternatives and seemed to stick with sylgard for a reason.

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mikej
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#3 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:59 pm

I've not tried this alternative.
Different coatings, at different thickness, with potentially different UV absorption, can result in the need for adjusted exposure times.
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RobertH
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#4 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:00 pm

Alex, what kind of settings are you using with this? and also resolution?

alexpolo
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#5 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:14 pm

I have made no changes to exposure times and getting perfect results with each print.

I havent had a single layer stick to the silicone either - once the Sylgard got a bit cloudy I think that surface layer becomes porous and the occasional layer sticks. I think this goes back to way the silicone is catalysed. As this grade is a 1:1 ratio the set composition has a higher resistance to the chemical setting of the resin against the surface.

Clarity is the same as sylgard it just lacks the flexibility of sylgard when you bend it back more the 30% it snaps. I am using an aluminium vat with a glass window and the waterfall edge.
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Robert Howle
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#6 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:19 pm

The reason for any silicone product to stop sticking, regardless of its chemistry, is it's ability to oxygenate. Oxygen inhibits curing, therefore inhibits sticking of the cured layer. The ideal product would be one that inhibits sticking and lasts forever (no clouding).

Wish some chemist would just figure out what is causing the clouding. I am convinced it's a combinaion of resin in the porous surface reacting with water in the atmosphere. if u set a vat asside with a new PDMS and it will fog completely when exposed to the atmosphere and UV from flourescenct lighting. Just speculation on my part.
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Metalcaster
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#7 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:24 pm

Apparently that material is available in.... Australia. If some one knows a US source, I would buy it to test.

jkao
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#8 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:31 pm

Interesting, from a US perspective, the most similar stuff I can find is Smooth-On's Encapso-K (http://www.smooth-on.com/Silicone-Rubber-an/c2_1113_1276/index.html.

That appears to also be a 1:1 Silicone mix which is suitable for crumbled glass effects. They don't sell it as an SFX glass substitute, although they also sell 2 different other glass substitute resins that they say shatter just like glass. Alex's description of the Barnes resin seems to match Encapso-K more closely since the sample picture seems to show something that could be crumbled to be glass-like, but is softer than glass to a significant enough extent that it wouldn't be a shatter-effect substitute.

DonThongie
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#9 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:13 pm

Hi Alex,

Good to hear that there is alternative and last much longer as well, I'm just wondering if it's easy to remove from the vat without damaging it? I've been trying to work out a way to move the projector XY to utilise the printable area after each PDMS coat. I shall try this one day, the store is not far from home. Please keep us posted on this. :)

Don

alexpolo
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#10 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:40 am

The Breakable Glass strips off the glass window just like the sylgard, peels off mainly in one piece.

Also having the waterfall edge get a perfect smooth finish over the edge as its mixed consistency is much lower than the sylgard which I found to be close to room temp honey and when mixing about 35gms of sylgard having to train the mix over the edge. This silicone grade flows like water and sets within the hour without heat help.

alexpolo
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#11 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:24 pm

After close to 4 weeks I have taken out the vat from the B9 - never done that before had that much mileage of the a vat. The coating is still good the only fogging is supports which for build reasons I needed to make them vertical. I can safely say this grade of silicone is far more durable to the b9s printing process.

It will still need replacing but the cost of the material and the print time out of the coating take from a hassle to something you occasionally do. Even though this vat is still going strong I have replaced the sylgard coatings on my other vats with same rubber glass material.

I will leave this used vat out in the light see if it gets residual haze - with sylgard after heavy printing it fogs quickly if left out in the light.

I didnt have a single layer stick to the coating. You can see from photo there is no general fogging of the coating. I would even dare say that as the material is more viscous when mixed the contact surface is slightly smoother than sylgard.

I have a brand new sylgard kit going cheap if anyone is australia wants to pay to postage they can have the material for free. Better than going in the bin.
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Rubber Glass Fogging.JPG
Fogging on Coating

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RobertH
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#12 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:51 pm

just like that huh? :) we need advanced users jump on this asap :D
a link that I may order this in the US? also how many grams did you use on your aluminum vat?

alexpolo
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#13 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:33 pm

After leaving vat out for 48hrs there is visible sign of fogging of the Rubber Glass coating but its considerably less than the sylgard.
I have left sylgard vats out after heavy use and within 24hrs they fog to the point where they are practically not useable.
I would say this points to this grade of rubber higher resistance to the chemical attack of the resin.
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PDMS Fogging.jpg

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akgold
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#14 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:45 pm

leaving the resin in the vats between printing stops the fogging as well as some people early last year were putting them in black light proof bags if I remember correctly that worked too.
by the way if you take your finger and wipe the pdms I bet it will come off.
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alexpolo
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#15 » Wed May 20, 2015 12:28 am

Hi All,

Reporting that I am still using the Sylgard alternative and and finding the results consistent and with fewer problems. I have not had a single print layer stick to the new silicone and vat life is greatly increased. I have been asked what vat I use. I have using a DIY home brewed Vat. Its aluminium construction which is glued together with building grade polyurethane flexible sealer. I am using 3mm glass inserts also glued in. The vat has a 5mm waterfall edge wall so about 2mm of silicone sitting on top of the glass.

The breakable glass pours excellently over the waterfall edge and leaves a really smooth radius. I am using about 55gms of silicone to coat the glass and the bottom of the well. This makes the vat a lot easier to clean between runs. I usually strain after 4-5 prints to get any debris out and having the silicone coated well makes draining easy.

To coat breakable glass I mix and pour it cures at average temp in about an 1 HR, after which I place the vat on its side and place a small fan heater on the bottom side and give it a mild heat blast to completely flash off the silicone the vat is good to go in about 3 hrs. My current vat has been going strong for 3 weeks - I was changing Sylgard almost weekly.

Stripping the vat of the breakable glass is the same - peels off easily.

Here is photo of the DIY home brewed ali vat - it was cut on a mill so I milled the bottom for the sides to sit into and then glued.
Could be tig welded.

SAM_1820.jpg

SAM_1821.jpg

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RobertH
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#16 » Wed May 20, 2015 1:00 am

wow you got some cunstruction going on, why not use a poly vat or aluminum vat? Im gonna test something very similar to this though rubber glass. I heard bare aluminum reacts with resin and it should be anodized.

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panastation
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#17 » Thu May 21, 2015 12:36 am

dam craft skills +5
haha its awesome feeling when u make something and it works...

alitans
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#18 » Thu May 21, 2015 10:44 am

How can we get this product other than Australia and Newzeland?

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noahbern
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#19 » Thu May 21, 2015 10:50 am

I just ordered some to try... Thanks!

jkao
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Re: PDMS SYLGARD184 Alternative - Rubber GLASS RTV Silicone

Post#20 » Thu May 21, 2015 12:23 pm

The material properties of described are very similar to Smooth-On's Encapso-K (http://www.smooth-on.com/Silicone-Rubbe ... index.html).

If you're looking for something available in the US, this is the most likely item, although you'd have to test it and see how it performs.

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