GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Successful prints based on Model construction, supports, material selection & printer settings.
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Burnsjt
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#61 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:19 pm

Fantastic work, put me down for 1!

kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#62 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:23 am

Thank you and everyone for all the encouragement! it's keeping this project moving forward 100%. Got the PDMS inserts done yesterday and today will be the precision glass cutter project. Printing to resume after that next crucial step. All is going smoothly. : )
KR

zanderscreations
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Post#63 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:56 am

Tribetype made a good point. If I am home during the printing process, I usually check it until I actually see a part emerge from the VAT. A window in the side of the VAT would be a cool improvement.

Regardless I am interested as well!

Has these been actually used yet to see if theyre an improvement?

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Robert Howle
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Post#64 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:53 am

If no window vet then just "pause" the print while still just building supports. Raise the build table and take a look. Even if u get a line in the build it will only be on the supports. Just my 9 cents.
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mikej
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Post#65 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:56 am

What Robert said. Still, everyone likes to watch :)
Measure Twice, Cut Once.

kirkrhino
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Post#66 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:31 am

Hi Mike, good to see you! Yes, no doubt glass cutting is a bit of an acquired skill- so it stands to reason that this aspect of this project has definitely the most challenging- as even the 5X4 clear glass Mc MasterCarr sells is rated at plus or minus a 1/32"- which is not acceptable for this close tolerance application. The professionals at the local glass shop also think in terms of plus or minus 1/8 of an inch.. So making this crucial leap forward took a bit of tooling creation time, but good news is the results are a success, works extremely well for close tolerances- and the length stop is pinned so it can be moved as needed in both directions.

[URL=http://imgur.com/Dy7wA7X][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Dy7wA7X.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

As far as the front window is concerned, I may as well go ahead and integrate it as an option (right from the get-go) so people who prefer this feature can have it if they wish. 1/16 thick glass can be imbedded into the front panel, should not be a big deal to make this happen, especially now that I have the means to precision cut glass without a lot of hassle. More on that to come when I know for sure.

Hello zanderscre-ations, to answer your questions, the whole premise of glass/aluminum has been mainly to address durability and longevity, but there is no reason why they should not print as well as the stock vats- while saving 1/2 the PDMS at the same time.

Results/observations with the poly vat using this technique indicate that the PDMS thickness hardens relatively dead even over the entire surface of the glass, which amounts to an ideal- level and even- print bed. The earlier model poly vats print great, and should be finally able to set up and be printing on the aluminum ones later this weekend, as unfortunately the glass cutting project went beyond the entire hourly contents of last weekend. If only another 24 hours in the day! lol Thanks for everyone's patience on that, print photo's and more to come as soon as possible. Been crazy busy at the shop (my day job) as well so stay tuned! : )

Realistically it now looks more like mid to late November before they can be rolled out- given that I have a couple of design tweaks and further work on final plate fixture still ahead-plus adding the front window option and such- but rest assured I am moving heaven and earth to make this all happen as quickly as possible! : )

Best regards, Kirk

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perpetual_dreamer
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Post#67 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:41 am

Take your time Kirk.. Mid or late November is not long a wait for a well finished product :)

SeaBorneScanner
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#68 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:55 am

Kirk, will you only make one batch, or will you be able to make them on demand, even for small quantities?
I think I will only know if I can buy a B9C in several months, do I have to sign up for 2 of your vats now, or will I be able to order them also in several months?

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tim.yoshi
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Post#69 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:53 pm

Sorry, maybe I'm not getting, but what is the points to use alu vat?
Why there is so rush?
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cl2635
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Post#70 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:39 pm

^ easier to scrub clean, safe to use alcohol, won't start cracking after two or three uses, or VAT feet breaking off etc. :)

kirkrhino
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Post#71 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:23 am

Hello all, @ SeaBorneSc-anner Yes you should be fine either way, let's keep our fingers crossed! : ) Hi Tim, yes there have been a lot of people wanting glass windows as it does not scratch like plastic and more rugged and long lasting. The whole reason this project started was my vat became unusable rather quickly as I was using alcohol (as stated in the wiki at that time) to spray it out so the PDMS would stick nicely.

I also use alcohol and a microfiber cloth to wipe down the PDMS in-between uses. Mike was out of vats at the time and I really needed one quick to finish an important prototype job, so I opted to build one out of polycarbonate-which was fine but it seems makerjuice begins to degrade poly, so all has led to aluminum.. (mostly by suggestions and requests).

But the largest motivating reason I came up with my own design was I was having a hard time filling the floor with PDMS that never got used. I figured there had be a way to eliminate that waste. Several designs later I cam up with a workable solution.

This Vat uses 20 ML PDMS ONLY! Perhaps even less if you really want to push it and go for a super thin coat! But 20 ML gives a coat as thick as the stock VAT. And the leveling method I use (built into the vat- more on that later), insures a super flat level coat over the surface of the glass.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Xg5fmnW.jpg[/IMG]

Here's a pic as yesterday I finally had a chance to get this model into the oven and onto the printer.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/5tHodeX.jpg[/IMG]

So the PDMS saving method requires an oven to work properly, as yesterday I went 5 minutes at 225 degrees PDMS flows over the double waterfall in the first 5 minutes, and then another 25 minutes at 275 degrees, and the Vat was fully cured in 30 minutes flat. Another 10 minutes to cool down and it was ready to print! It may be possible to find a way to use the PDMS saver without an oven, but haven't had a chance to pioneer that yet. Hopefully soon I can get to that. Been busy designing and machining for the past 2 months.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3qCbAY3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fk3XAp9.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QjytpPl.jpg[/IMG]

Eye-full tower : ) was perhaps way too small scale as the supports for the top would have been smaller than a hair at this scale, but tried out a couple of things none the less. Sorry for the grainy nighttime photo's.

Anyways, there is not really a big rush on my end, there are just folks who are looking forward to using these, that's all. Doing my best to make it happen. Perhaps by now I am beginning to sound like a broken record as far as delivery estimates. lol. The final touch is the resent request for a side window- have done a bit of work on a that preliminary design, but having a hard time warming up to it so far, thinking perhaps a window on the side might be a better choice, or both? Still some work and testing to do on that. it's really thin glass and potentially fragile.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/P7IzKsV.jpg[/IMG]

Anyways, perhaps someone could suggest something interesting to print? Was working with the 50xy but perhaps I need to test at 100XY, hopefully something that does not use us an entire jar of resin.. lol. No reason this should not print as well as any other vat.

Also want to test again with maker juice, yet another reason for glass and have a rugged vat. As many have trashed their vats using makerjuice when the PSMS fails and the makerjuice bonds to the plastic and can crack the plastic window out. Thus leaking volatile makerjuice all over the floor and potentially damaging any ABS type plastic in the printer.
So anyways, still working on things, no rush but many requests so doing my best to get these complete in a timely manner for those interested.

Cheers! Kirk

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tim.yoshi
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Post#72 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:01 am

I'm now on test's with simpler solution - removable window :)
It is not glued. but just layed there on the layer of double sided tape. PDMSed without problems. Still haven't printed on it yet. If it works it will be awesome! :) If you have some PDMS torn apart and resin cured to the window - just throw it away and applyly new one! :) It will be waaay more cheaper.
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kirkrhino
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Post#73 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:15 am

Good ideaTim. There is no reason why that shouldn't work as well, Beats replacing the entire vat whenever the makerjuice sticks to and breaks the plastic window! : How often does this problem happen in your experience? Good luck on that! : )

Looking forward to testing more with the makerjuice soon to see how things go with this model. Have had it stick to/tear up the PDMS happen once- but those kind of failures don't bother the glass- so the glass/aluminum Vat is pretty much bulletproof and good for a lifetime. And it's not nearly as painful to print with the juice when you only have to use 20ML to replace as well.

Does the "new formula" josh came up with still stick to the PDMS or is it any better? Love the clear colors of that resin and the way it gets super hard. Love printing with it and yes the price is a bargain for sure. Been focused on this project so haven't had a chance to search the forum to see what people's experiences have been lately?

Cheers, Kirk

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tim.yoshi
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Post#74 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:25 am

In my experience that happened only once, but the irony here is that it was B9R not the MJR :) It was when sweeper made flap flip and stopped to refresh PDMS, so the resin firstly cured to the PDMS and then thru the tear to the VAT. And also got two VAts "broken" because of using some other PDMS instead of Sylgard. First time it teared of pretty easily as a Sylgard, but it left some kind of layer under it so when I used poured next portion of PDMS it was cured together forever. And when I next time tried to remove it... well that was a mess :( So that's why I came differently to the removable window idea. Cleaning with alcohol doesn't bother me coz I'm not cleaning it at all :)

Regarding MJR yes, their new SubG+ does way more awesome work. It is kinda more viscous, so bore times to settle and breathe, but actually that is a good thing - it also allows PDMS to live easily :) And it cures twice as slower, so once again - less reactive. And finally it shrinks less - that is plus for more stable prints which do not shrinks from the base and around the corners. And regarding super-hardness. Actually MJR's basic materials are quite brittle. But I got on test his secret new formula and this one is really hyperhard. ;)
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cl2635
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Post#75 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:34 am

Kirk.. I wouldn't mind if you kept only half (or even smaller) the cutout for the window on the right side only (projector side) or another corner. Its only there to check if print is going fine and parts haven't detached from the build table so anything to minimize more work for you if good. :)

vsions
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Post#76 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:37 pm

Great work! I am most definitely interested in one. Please add me to the list :) Thanks

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Robert Howle
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#77 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:00 pm

Tim have u gotten any results as to the casting properties of the new B9R and SubG+ mix.

Robert
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kirkrhino
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Post#78 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:58 am

Thanks Tim, good to know regarding the sub-g! I think I heard somewhere they once saved a shuttle mission with duct tape so there you go! : ) If for some reason the double-sticky does not hold you could always drill and pin them or add some flat head screws to the equation?

Yes cl2635 thanks for the input, not to worry, will get this thing licked here soon. Top priority is to make sure it remains as rugged and long lasting as possible. I think a single window on the projector side is a good idea, am going to shoot for that next, using 1/8 inch glass instead of the 1/16 as was too thin and fragile. Planning on framing it in so it's as close to seamless on the inside as possible and looks professional.
Just so you know the picture of the double window above was just a test run- and it's definitely out.

Thanks vsions- got ya on the list! : )

Right corner is also out due to sweeper blocking view - but left side wall would "look" the best in my opinion, and probably be the sturdiest, will also make one like that as well to test for visuals from that side- but this is more about function than looks of course. Not to worry, will make sure I find a good balance of all requirements before proceeding forward. And as yes all of this unfortunately slows things down a bit it should not affect the final price, want to make keep them as reasonably affordable as possible. And have heard from folks who's vats are out of commission and eagerly waiting the arrival so thanks for your patience while the final details are ironed out. : )

Best regards, Kirk

cl2635
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Post#79 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:53 pm

Kirk.. I agree with you that the left side would 'look' and work best also. Infact, I almost always watch my prints from the left side. Unlike having a window on the front towards the projector side where you can only see your print for a second or two when it slides into view and down into the PDMS, when its on the left side one can view the print without much distraction for any duration.

kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#80 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:45 am

Hi cl2635 thanks for that insight.

Yes, that's it, sounds perfect then, I had not been using a clear vat for awhile so I didn't have a way to just sit down and check out which view is the most ideal. That's very helpful as I think this is probably going to be the best solution that does not compromise the soundness of the build. Will whip that out this weekend and give it a test run. (Weekends are pretty much the only chance to utilize (for an exchange) the shop time from my boss, he's been very generous with this- probably because I have been working for him for the past 27 years! lol.

Anyways, will give that top priority as it makes the most sense at this point, especially because the end is a bit taller and gives sufficient space for a descent sized slice of glass. Thanks again for the info! Cheers, Kirk

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