GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Successful prints based on Model construction, supports, material selection & printer settings.
kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#461 » Wed May 14, 2014 5:10 am

Good job Tim, excellent, I knew you could do it. Perhaps it was the mixing then? If you noticed what looked like uncured PDMS perhaps that was it? I like using a plastic spoon, as the inside of the container is a bit ruff and could cause wood splinters when mixing up against edge?

======

And as promised, here's a demo of the "cliff method" using a home made i-beam. Used 3/8 square stock and 1/8 cord stock.

Here's the prototype I-beam with o-rings on ends:
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First to level out vat inside oven:
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Here's what it looks like before the pour, leveled out on the countertop:
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Poured 30ML +3ML .covered with sheet paper, walked away for 20 minutes-
Now leveled out most bubbles gone, (used toothpick to pop last few large bubbles).
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Placed in preheated oven @ 275 for 30 minutes:
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Cooled down a few minutes, then initial trim:
Go slow, take your time, be careful not to push too hard and cut into the metal surface!
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Re-positioned "I-beam" at an angle and took second cut at slight angle:
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Here is what is left over:
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And here is what the trimmed edge looks like:
(there were a few bubbles that came from underneath I-beam, but OK, nowhere near print area).
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Cool down a few minutes, and it's ready to print!
Easy as pie, in one try! PDMS surface smooth as glass, 100% perfect!

First cut was a little uneven, but second one came out super nice. Only one straight cut is required I believe.
You can also check Mike's instructions as well which are located in the HD version literature.

The toughest part for me was to estimate how much pressure to put on the blade, as did not want to dig into the metal with the knife! However these VATS are HARD anodized so it's not so easy to penetrate the surface.
I recommend using an number 11 exacto blade as it's thin near the end.

Make sure you trim the edge BEFORE re-moving the ibeam.. It stuck pretty good, needed pliers to remove it, however the final I-beam design I now stock includes a small handle to make it easy to remove). .

So that's one method of coating, but special "I-beam" required.

Could also be done at lower heat for those who prefer using the 150-175. That would theoretically take twice as long though.
Can also be done without an oven, takes 2-3 days to cure.

Best, Kirk
Last edited by kirkrhino on Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Atso
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#462 » Wed May 14, 2014 7:30 am

A thought on the swirling reported. If you put the cold vat and PDMS in a hot oven there will be some thermal movement while the PDMS temperature stabilises. If the temperature of the oven is such that the PDMS cures before the thermal movement has stopped, swirls will be frozen into the PDMS. Maybe wrong - just a thought.

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akgold
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#463 » Wed May 14, 2014 10:03 am

That is great Kirk,
I just got to this and was going to say this as well. 2nd vat is good has two divots but I might live with them. plus I did this to the second vat last night but i just ended up using my flat 1/2 aluminum I cut for the dam you had sent that I ruined and then I just used your tape method and moved the aluminum bar up against the tape. the tape is a PIA it doesn't want to stick to the vats very good or I have old tape ( very old masking tape)

then I baked it as you did. cut it to remove the 1/8 bar after removing the tape and as you did re-cut it again
I just pulled it out of the oven a few minutes ago after I mixed up 1gram of pdms and added it to the cliff as well.
but I just let it cook at 180degrees for an hour and it seems like it cured well enough.

You have to do this if you use this method of cutting it as the pdms will separate from the surface in spots where you cut especially on the corners.
I used a card to move the fresh pdms up to the edge in areas that showed a gap to make sure it got into that area.]

I like yours better with the seals on the sides.
check out this post as well. it may well be the answer to all of this without cutting.

http://www.b9c.com/support/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=1742.0
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Image
I'm so far behind I think I'm First !!

kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#464 » Wed May 14, 2014 1:26 pm

Hi @Tim-


=======
UPDATE: 2/10/2015 Tim was THE only person on the entire forum who ever had issues with coating these VATS! Not one other single complaint from any of the other 100+ users to date! (just so you know) These VATS have been a total success in every way, no issues whatsoever.

=======

Sounds good, glad you got it done! Looks like you got your new method figured out then? Yes, saw that post you are talking about, looks interesting, - a method that seems to work well with no need for oven. Keep in mind there is still a waterfall going on there as well. The fact that VAT has to be "perfectly level" may throw a few folks off though- as far as going main stream with it?

Otherwise would be prone to have a gap there at the edge.

But it's not a "trimmed cut" as Mike is pointing out works best..On the other hand, if you wanted to stick with waterfall, then why not use PDMS saver method? It's fast, and still a strong contender print wise. Much easier with the new "blue spacer"..I guess it's a toss up. Good to have a choice I suppose.

Also, yes blue tape sticks very well here to the plated surface. You may need to wipe/rinse out the VAT with alcohol for max adhesion though, silicone residue is slippery to say the least..and/or blue tape is likely to fall off in the oven when exposed to heat?

If you look at the production pictures on the prior page, half the VAT is covered with blue tape and it's not falling off any time soon. : ) Takes work to remove it! Sticks extremely well. lol

So yes, the "cliff method" can and does work in all VATS, it does take some getting used to though.. Manuel trimming PDMS takes a bit of skill with the knife, but I think folks should get the hang of it pretty quick. :)

Best regards, Kirk
Last edited by kirkrhino on Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KHAILE
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#465 » Thu May 15, 2014 6:28 am

Hello Kirk.
Is there anyway I can get one of your new Vat. Please let me know. Thanks

Khai
Khai Jewelers

kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#466 » Thu May 15, 2014 6:44 am

Hello Khai,

Sending you PM with more info. The answer is yes, but could be a while though, would have to be next round.

Best, Kirk

mongerdesigns
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#467 » Fri May 16, 2014 5:12 am

So MakerJuice tried to sell their own version of the VAT and got a C&D letter from Mike. What about this aluminum version? How is Mike allowing this one?

I'm just confused, because I thought b9 creator was open source. Hope it's not turning into 3dystems and suing everyone.

http://makerjuice.com/2014/05/14/vat-removed-from-store/

kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#468 » Fri May 16, 2014 6:57 am

Hello mongerdesigns

This is the first I have heard about this, but from the start the aluminum VAT project has been about improving the product and not competing with Mike's offerings. If you look back through the pages in the very beginning I was leery of selling VATS here and had reservations about it. I also maintained that if Mike at any time asked me to stop I would do so immediately.

And that's still the case, however I think it's the only fair he gets a cut from my sales. We are yet to reach an agreement, but it's in process as far as I know. This would be a way to include him while still making this offering avail be to the community. He has been extremity kind and generous to allow this to have gone this far to start with, but was doing so in the spirit of open source,

Together as a community, we made strides to improve the product design. Have also offered this design to him exclusively with 100% rights to use it as he wishes. The truth is though, this is not a cost efficient way of producing these, so even if another big shop made them the cost would be through the roof and impracticable. Being the genius he is, he figured out a better way to make them, so they can be produced in an effective and affordable manner.

I can't and don't speak for Mike but I know he and his team work extremely hard to put this marvelous invention together, and he has a payroll to pay out as well for those involved in making this happen. I have great respect for him and his cutting edge efforts. So again, if it's his wish for me to stop I will immediately, no problem with it.

Meantime due to the replacements for the UN-plated blunder I made- half of this batch is already out there and I am still far from paying back even my material/plating costs just yet, so it's not like I"m getting rich off this anytime soon.

As far as open source is concerned, all the plans are here build one of these yourself. I believe the license even allows you to build and sell up to five of these units. But the whole intention of open source is not to come in and profit from Mike's hard work and endeavors. It's about making them available so anyone who wants to can make their own. So yes, it's definitely the case that my offering is also a violation of the licensing agreement.

Please read it if you have a chance to do so. But as far as these, yes willing at any time to discontinue sales, not a problem here. And once Mike had a similar offering coming on line, was fully ready to wind these sales down, but so far it looks like Mike is OK with me continuing. (at least for now)..Perhaps that's what is still to come? I believe he has every right to ask me to stop at any time, and if so I will be fully compliant. Would be nice to finish off with the materials on hand. But either way, I consider this a privilege and a pleasure and not a right by any means.

Hope that helps, and please consider all that Mike and his team does to make this amazing technology possible. It's no simple task by any means.

Just not fair for anyone -including me- to pull the rug out from under his efforts, but instead my intention is to hopefully team up with him in some regard so it's a win-win for everyone. And am open to however it turns out, truly and respectfully so.

Best regards, Kirk

mongerdesigns
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#469 » Fri May 16, 2014 7:50 am

Thanks for the explanation Kirk. Makes sense to me. If this makerjuice guys made and sold the tank without permission from Mike then he deserved what he got. However, it's still kinda strange, since I was under the impression Mike doesn't really make a lot of money from selling the tanks, being that they are designed so you can re-coat them and re-use them, etc. So maybe it's personal ;) Maybe he likes you Kirk, and dislikes this makerjuice guy ;)

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akgold
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#470 » Fri May 16, 2014 8:23 am

Mongerdesigns,
Your now stirring a pot that has nothing to do with us or you. To make the assumption Mike is showing favor for one and disliking another with no direct involvement or even if you have a stake in it your best to address this with Mike directly rather than spread a rumor of Mike showing favoritism.
Open source is there for you, I, and everyone to utilize and improve upon. In the case of this aluminum vat it is an improvement based on the original design plans shown on the site. Kirk was required to share his design for the improved vat for B9 as part of the open source agreement.
Don't start something here on Mike's own site. If you don't like it don't buy it. But there is no reason for you to bring this up to us. We don't care about who does or doesn't use the open source and the battles Mike would have to fight unless he needs our support of which as a user I will give
as well as you should. I read some comments. As for Makerjuice they are benefiting from not only Mike's hard work and invention but every other resign based printer as well. If it weren't for him and others like him they would not have a business. They would do well to remember that. As well as you. Now would be the time to apologize for bringing this up. And hope he doesn't bounce you off here for trying to start something that has no merit to us moving forward and learning.
I guess I could say the same some of their comments and say I will not buy from maker for complaining about getting a cease and desist letter from B9 from trying to profit even more than they are from them.
I'm so far behind I think I'm First !!

kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#471 » Fri May 16, 2014 9:36 am

@ mongerdesigns,

If I was in Mike's shoes it would probably be hard to like me, since what I am offering is an intrusion on his business.

Don't know if it has anything to do with like or dislike, it's simply business. People have to do what's in best interest of their business. I have been very lucky to have made it this far, all I can say is I am willing to co-operate and comply with whatever is asked of me.

And yes Mike he has also stated that he sees my efforts as a contribution to the community.

It is an honor and a privilege to be of service.

The whole idea of the project was to perhaps inspire a move towards what prints best and is long lasting..glass/aluminum seem to fill that bill and together we all made that happen. Mission accomplished by all involved.

So yes, open source goes to a certain extent, but some protections have to remain. Otherwise anyone can come along and copy, perhaps have things made overseas- sell it for less and completely undermine Mike's hard work and efforts.

This is why for the most part commercial sales of the B9 and it's sub-components, commercial sales are strictly prohibited according to the licensing agreement. The fact that it's OK to make and sell up to 5 units is rather generous in my opinion as far as open source goes.

I would hate to see it become some kind of expensive (for both parties) court battle- perhaps Josh will eventually choose to take the higher road? One would certainly hope so?

It's perfectly fine for people who want to save money on vats to put some work into it and make their own, all the files are here, also another benefit based on the original intent of open source. :)

Best regards, Kirk

cl2635
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#472 » Fri May 16, 2014 9:56 am

hey Monger, why don't you go back in your corner and twiddle with your Form1 printer xD
Its no rocket science that MakerJuice is only out there to make money off what Mike has produced, while Kirk is truly here to help improve on B9 usage. If you participated in the forums and didn't just troll once in a blue moon, you'd know Kirk has repeatedly offered Mike a cut of the sales or even halting the project unless Mike was really okay with it.

Maybe MakerJuice could make resin trays for you Form1 owners who have to go through atleast one a week I hear xD

madmartian
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#473 » Fri May 16, 2014 10:35 am

Can we all calm down please and not attack each other?

It does seem odd that Mike sent the cease and desist letter, considering this was billed as open source and considering many folks have made and sold vats, posted in these forums, without intervention. I'm sure Mike has a good reason and will chime in as to why eventually.

MakerJuice is not evil. They are providing a great service to makers - quality resin at low margins - and the community as a whole benefits from this. I for one would love to see a "low viscosity vat" that can slide at full speed without splashing lower-viscosity resin on my kitchen floor and melting the vat sensor (speaking from experience). I don't know if that was MakerJuice's goal or if they merely reproduced vats from Mike's design, without change, to cash in on another consumable.

Mike is not evil either. I'm sure Mike will let us know why he sent the letter. Hopefully before fist fights break out here in the forums. :)

kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#474 » Fri May 16, 2014 12:44 pm

On a brighter note, I am guessing Mike is now off to the Las Vegas show and printing with the new HD Machine? : ) I can imagine he will enjoy a break from the forum while he is gone. : )

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mikej
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Post#475 » Fri May 16, 2014 1:29 pm

Still here, that show is at the end of this month. :) I've just been very busy the last few days setting up physical space for production. I will try to catch up on all the posts over the weekend (not tonight).
Measure Twice, Cut Once.

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Robert Howle
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#476 » Fri May 16, 2014 3:49 pm

@Ak and @kirk. This is not the first time monger has shown true colors (just my opinion). I think your statements Tim are right on the mark and very well said. Kirk u should just ignore Monger, tried to stir the pot in the past. I have always believed from previous comments that he has always had an agenda.

Open source as u stated is about the individual and not corporations and there sales. Kirk has worked hard to improve the longevity of the vat and help all of us benefit from Mike and his teams hard work. The reason is obvious why Mike has allowed Kirk to produce and engineer his vats. If u can't see the difference then u have blinders on. But I for one am a little fed up with your popping up on occasion to use the forum for whatever ends u have in mind. Don't know and don't really care what your goals are. We all work here for the benefit of the community,and if u can't, I would just rather you not participate in the future. Of course this not my decision, and you probably don't give a rip about what I think, I also don't care what u think about me. On the other hand when u make statements with regards to Mike's motives, I take exception. Mike does many things in the background, which I will not share here, that benefit anyone that is willing to be a community member working for the good of all of us. This includes you, even though you probably don't deserve it.

I am a little touchy today. I lost my mom on wednesday and buried her today. This may have a little to do with my state of mind, but does not change the intent of my comments, just the presentaion. God bless u mom.

Robert Howle
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sflores@joyeriadeplata.mx
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#477 » Fri May 16, 2014 4:26 pm

Robert, I convey to you my deepest condolence. I have lost my father last year and it really hurts... Your mom is now better than Us.

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Robert Howle
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Post#478 » Fri May 16, 2014 4:37 pm

Thank you for your kind works.
Dance like nobody's watching!

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akgold
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#479 » Fri May 16, 2014 4:55 pm

robert,
you have my deepest sympathy, Many of us here may well know your pain. I know I do for what it is worth. Hang in there bud. My prayers go with you and your family.
Tim
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fcort
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#480 » Fri May 16, 2014 5:18 pm

Hello Robert,

Very sorry to hear about your loss. My prayers are with you and your family. Keep your head up friend.

Best, Fernando Cortes
Red Door Distributions
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