GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

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kirkrhino
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GEN 2 ALUMINUM "KAT VAT" coming soon!

Post#421 » Fri May 09, 2014 10:08 am

Thanks Panda! Glad you like it. :)

DanielV and AlexSmith, sending you PM's here in minute.

And yes, @ Alex bare aluminum is not the way to go, must be plated like the build table (anodized). My design requires CNC milling machine, but there are files in the open source section for reference if you have access to laserjet/waterjet. Also check back a few pages for CAD drawings of the earlier model for reference.

Keep in mind Mike will have an anodized aluminum model with borosiclliate glass coming soon. Sapphire glass is overkill and too expensive IMO. Boro is highly scratch resistant and super tough, perfectly adequate for this application.

Best, Kirk

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Capn
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Post#422 » Sat May 10, 2014 5:54 am

Kirk I am interested in buying one of your vats!

kirkrhino
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Post#423 » Sun May 11, 2014 6:22 am

Hello Capin, sending you PM with more info.

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Metalcaster
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Post#424 » Sun May 11, 2014 10:38 am

Hi kirk, just checking to see when mine may be shipped. Looking forward to it. Looks great.

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behold3d
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Post#425 » Sun May 11, 2014 1:03 pm

It's the re-coating process the same for the kat vats as it is for the original vats?

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behold3d
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Post#426 » Sun May 11, 2014 1:03 pm

It's the re-coating process the same for the kat vats as it is for the original vats?

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Robert Howle
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Post#427 » Sun May 11, 2014 2:23 pm

Yes.
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kirkrhino
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Post#428 » Sun May 11, 2014 3:01 pm

@Metalcaster-sent you PM

@behold#D Now that Mike has introduced the new I-beam method, these can now be coated in 3 different ways.
Regular like the original vats, PDMS Saver, and the new I-beam method as discussed here: http://www.b9c.com/support/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=1703

Your choice, but so far I only have temporary partitions for the PDMS saver, which looks like this. Has o-rings to seal on the edges:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/CVNlFo2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/DbejQ2y.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/VFow1d1.jpg[/IMG]

Best regards, Kirk

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akgold
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Post#429 » Sun May 11, 2014 3:59 pm

works great too I just did mine. until I screwed it up.
first I drilled a peice of 1/8th inch aluminum and then pinned it to the blue dam Kirk supplies with the new vats (in the pictures). It was successful the other day forming the trough like Mike's I beam but unfortunately I was using my old method of leaving on the heater over night and I had all kinds of problems with the pdms having weird swirls and where ever I was removing bubbles it left pock marks in the surface. Now, although the pdms looked absolutely perfect like it did yesterday, when I put it in the new "easy bake oven " (oster oven) from walmart It showed all of the marks where I twirled the bubbles out again not to mention a few others. I don't get it I saw nothing but a smooth pristine surface when I put it in the oven. I included a picture but I don't know if you can see them.
I broke down and bought an oven at Wal-mart for 88 bucks like Kirk shows in the video and man that makes short work of the process.
only problem is I used the new dam in the oven and it didn't like 275 deg. it shrunk so now it doesn't fit.
DON'T do that.
It's great idea for sealing bad idea to not remove it and put it in the oven. My bad. I kinda wondered if it would make it through the process.
I was going for the straight edge cut off the meniscus without the I beam method this time.
I had made the Blue dam fit a piece of 1/8 aluminum by drilling and pinning it. it leaked around the bottom corners a bit maybe why it looked all swirly because the pdms was moving.

Me and pdms don't get along.
back to the drawing board and do what works.
P.S. I notice also that the PDMS on the new vat comes up very easily from the anodized surface but if it flows out away from it I am reasonably sure it will not be a problem.
Image
Image
Image
I'm so far behind I think I'm First !!

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akgold
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Post#430 » Sun May 11, 2014 4:02 pm

other pictures I mentioned.
Image
Image
Image
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akgold
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Post#431 » Sun May 11, 2014 4:26 pm

The last two pictures show the meniscus that is talked about it is the edge that runs up against the sides and it causes that fall off that the I beam method will allow you to cut off for a definite edge with no taper.
that is what I was trying to achieve
I'm so far behind I think I'm First !!

kirkrhino
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Post#432 » Sun May 11, 2014 4:45 pm

Hi AK,



Hi Tim,

The blue spacer/partition is not designed for oven temperatures could possibly melt or deform, as
it's designed as a temporary partition for the "PDMS saver" method.

Best adhesion by cleaning with alcohol prior to coating if desired for best stick. : )

Oven temperatures can vary, have not had issues @275 but perhaps 200-250 is a safer bet?
Need to update the video so thanks for that input.

Also VAT can be quick soaked in sink with warm/hot water to quickly remove OLD PDMS before re-coating.

You could always resort to standard methods of coating until you get your i-beam figured out?

Best, Kirk

kirkrhino
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Post#433 » Sun May 11, 2014 5:42 pm

Also Tim,

In the picture where the PDMS has come up- you will want to make sure you TRIM the PDMS -BEFORE- you remove the DAM, as looks like it got pulled up when removing the dam? If you trim it first, then remove the "dam" you created and should keep that from happening again.

Hope that helps, and if that makes any sense, may not? Best, Kirk

kirkrhino
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Post#434 » Mon May 12, 2014 4:04 am

Hi Tim,

What I can do is make an "i-beam" dam today at work to demonstrate how to trim the PDMS using this method- just so people know it's not really going to be a difficult undertaking with the adequate tool for the job. : )

But again, for anyone out there, BLUE divider is not designed for I-beam method, Do Not Put Blue DIVIDER IN OVEN! :)

Will update with more on that in a day or two. Best, Kirk

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Metalcaster
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Post#435 » Mon May 12, 2014 4:11 am

You do not need to go to 250 degrees to cure the pdms... I cure mine in my electric oven at 150 oF to 175 oF in 2 hours. .
Dropping to lower cure temperatures will probably stop any melting / deforming issues.

kirkrhino
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Post#436 » Mon May 12, 2014 4:26 am

Hi Metalcaster,

Yes it's true you can lower the temps but takes longer to cure. If I recall correctly, the specs from the manufacture on the PDMS are 300 max.
Have successfully cured PDMS numerous times at 275 degrees, takes less than 30 minutes, but any bubbles have to be gone first, but that's another method all together.

I believe the "uneven surface issues" Tim was having are related to the use of unconventional methods of curing (on top of a heater), vs inside his new oven? Also, the melting Tim mentions is because he stuck the "blue divider" in the oven which is a no-no, it' was not designed for that purpose.

Hope that helps. Kirk

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akgold
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Post#437 » Mon May 12, 2014 7:51 am

Thanks for the input Kirk,

since I saw the post on the I beam and the mention of meniscus I did a little googling to learn about meniscus and it is interesting subject.
I totally understand the process to using the I beam method as Mike and I were having a conversation on another thread about how it worked.

Admittedly I was experimenting here at the same time hoping to get a successful usable pdms surface but due to the poor performance of the curing method using my new oven I didn't bother cutting the pdms first before hand as I figured I would use it by trying to capture the meniscus in the last pictures that shows how it looks and how far away from the wall the glass needs to be to cut the meniscus.
I took a chance on the blue dam you sent with the new vat I knew it was a risk. But it's on me.
my biggest problem must be taking too much time to remove bubbles. I seem to have a problem with the crater like poc marks in the surface of the PDMS over the window and these spots are related to the bubbles I pull out of the pdms. I let it sit once the bubbles are all removed. Looking at the surface of the PDMS before I put it in the oven about 15 to 20 minutes after mix and pour of PDMS, it looks perfect ( use a black paper under the glass and a flash light to see any bubbles) I then put it in the oven per your instructions at 250deg (preheated) for 10min. then to 275 for 20min.
it worked great but like the heater method using the new vat and the blue block on Friday (didn't work very good either due to poc marks and a strange swirling) the temp. of the heater is 150deg.F and it sits overnight.

So for me right now I need to get those bubbles out quicker or maybe the PDMS is not accurate.
it is a 10:1 ratio so your video shows 20gms of PDMS and 2.2 grams of cure, for a total of 22.2.
Mikes video shows 10:1 for 50 using 45.5 PDMS and 4.5 of cure.
it seems to me that your ratio is different than mikes. But yours has been successful for me in the past.
This last times I increased the volume based on the ration to 30grms and 3.3 grms of cure.
anyone know if it should be different?
I'm so far behind I think I'm First !!

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akgold
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Post#438 » Mon May 12, 2014 8:05 am

Oh by the way with the material your using for the dam?
I am wondering if it was placed between to flat surfaces and baked at 300 degrees for about thirty minutes allowing the material to shrink before cutting it, wouldn't that take care of the shrinkage permanently?

I think it would but it would have to be clamped between to flat sheets of aluminum or steel and it would have to cool with the clamps on it to prevent it from warping. but I am betting once that has been done it could stand the temps.

kinda like washing you material before cutting it to a pattern so it won't shrink after you sew it together. ( no I don't sew but my ex was very talented in the sewing of everything so I learned about that from her.)

just another thing for you to do LOL
I'm so far behind I think I'm First !!

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Robert Howle
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Post#439 » Mon May 12, 2014 11:45 am

If u use kirk's vat coating video for pdms saver method all u do is replace the tape with the new dam he has made. Go here scroll down and start coating. (watch it first).

http://www.b9c.com/support/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=958.8
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akgold
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Post#440 » Mon May 12, 2014 11:56 am

I got that already just don't leave it in place when you put it in the oven. I figured that out myself.
Is anyone reading my posts I am painfully sharing my mistakes to learn from LOL

if you want to have a straight edge instead of the standard fall off edge like mike has said can be done with an I Beam the beam must be left in the vat to achieve the desired cliff cut off straight.

I think my PDMS is bad. I am having the same problem I've had on the last two,
where ever I use a tooth pick to remove bubbles it forms a divot or a pock mark after it cures.this time I only removed three or four from the surface as well as blowing on it figured I am good
NOT!!!!!!!!
The surface before putting it in the oven is perfectly flat, no blemishes looks like glass and when it comes out it is all marked up with divots. And heaven forbid to use the tooth pick to "slide a bubble over away from the focused area. It leaves a trail in the surface after it is heated but you see absolutely nothing to indicate there was a trail before it is cured.

I think either the PDMS has a shelf life or the actual flow of the PDMS back to the deep side breaks all of the surface tension at once unlike my toothpick poking around the PDMS surface.
I have now lost 3 pdms coatings
I am going back to what works.
I'm so far behind I think I'm First !!

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